There are a number of first trials. The first actual trial I did was in Mississippi in 1967 when I was down with the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights defending civil rights workers. And I did a number of trials in Mississippi State Court. And the one thing that I learned in those trials is that it’s very hard to win if the judge and jury start out against you.

Another thing I learned is that if you keep at it, sometimes you can convince people, even though they start out very biased against your client. And it’s not easy, but you never give up on a judge or a jury. You recognize the problem, and while in subsequent cases I don’t think I’ve ever faced the implacable hostility that we faced with white judges and white juries in Mississippi in the 1960s over civil rights cases, but I’ve run into biased judges. I’ve run into juries that were very hostile to my client.

And one of the things I learned is to recognize that, to try to deal with it, and not to give up on them. Not to give up on a judge or a jury. Doesn’t mean you’re always gonna be able to win, but it means you’re never gonna be able to win if you give up.